Almost anyone can cut and paste a face on a different body using a classic photo editor.
It still takes a profesional to do it in a way that delivers a quality result.
Linus Torvalds is a professional, the linux terminal is his baby, if we can trust anyone on this, its him.
The amateurs using ai to produce slop that resembles what we perceive as quality, is sometimes hard to tell but 25 years ago people though half life 1 looked insanely realistic and that graphics could not possibly look any more real. Over time our brains will adapt and we will be able to tell slop from real work in a heartbeat. I bet most people here can already tell if a mail was written by an llm and not audited by a human with ease.
My subjective opinion is that yeah it is unethical, but not more then so many other things we normalised.
Systematicly slaughtering animals for meat for example.
I am not a vegitarian by any means. You cannot fight on all fronts at once and have to pick your own battles in context of your own lifes challenges.
Cars poison the air and kill many people, i dont drive a car for that reason because thats a fight i can fight. I have sensativities with food, so i am not cutting out meat. (I aim to do so some day)
I moved to linux some years ago by getting help from an llm which requires datacenters build by malicious companies. I don’t have a google or meta account and my cloud and media is hosted locally on recycled hardware. Where for others those services require datacenters build by malicious companies.
I’m worried about cognitive surrender. There’s evidence of people losing skills they once had because they stopped doing it themselves and just get AI to do it for them.
They should run the test with calculators, because they’ll see the same effect. Turns out that giving people a tool to make things trivial, and then taking that tool away, halfway through the goddamn exam, is a lot more frustrating than just asking them to do some algebra on paper.
‘Bicycling for just ten miles makes walking back seem like a pain in the ass.’
Absolutely not. Lots of thing were created to make jobs faster and more importantly faster.
Take the simple washing machine for example. Early iteration, before electric washing machine, caused a lot of injuries because people would get their arm stuck in the machine’s mechanism.
So by creating the modern washing machine, we freed lot of time for people to do less menial stuff and made their life safer by not having your arm pushing clothes through a dangerous machine.
If he’s still auditing and understanding the code. Something that he’s done as a project manager for decades at this point. I don’t see how it will. If the code is generated by a person or a machine. The auditing isn’t much different.
Ironically, I find the LLMs to be better at auditing code than generating it in the first place. Like the humans they trained under, LLMs make mistakes and miss important things in both endeavors, but: when an LLM finds a real problem, that’s a win no matter how you look at it.
Definitely. I just hope that sooner rather than later it’s possible for them all to move over to local open source models. Supporting wasteful content thieves is not sustainable.
That and that all the GPU manufacturers Etc have their sound blaster moment. These days a lot of socs have quite powerful Graphics accelerators on them. At some point, someone’s going to release a bit of silicon equivalent to the AC 97. May not have been able to compete with sound blaster on the ridiculously high end of the market. But was good enough for 99% of tasks. So that most people don’t even remember sound blaster anymore. Even though they still technically exist.
I have been using “onboard graphics” professionally in our products, including products which do 3D rendering, since 2014.
I think GPUs have a little longer life than sound blaster cards still in them, massive arrays of relatively simple CPUs have more purposes than just graphics rendering.
I searched what sound blaster is, but I don’t really understand it. Are they a company that made audio cards in the ancient times? I think I remember some people said that having audio cards was not standard.
Their website seems to have weird hardware targeted at gamers.
Maybe they sell audio interfaces? But I’m confused why gamers of all people would be the target group. I got an audio interface for my guitar myself and some MIDI things.
Back in the DOS days and early windows days. They were one of the gold standards for PC audio. Even if you didn’t own a sound blaster card, you likely owned a clone that emulated one. They were the bees knees so to speak when it came to PC gaming.
But by the late 90s the company had spread itself so thin on branding and other things. Sound blaster CDROM drives? Yep. Sound blaster video cards? Yep. Etc Etc Etc. They tried to parlay being a lucky defacto standard into something else. Wanted to be a premium brand. Prices go up, quality goes down. Kinda like Nvidia now. Fake frames, AI slop, shitting on traditional customers.
Turn of the century and a standard set in 97 finally started rolling out on consumer motherboards. No longer when you bought your computer if you wanted it to make anything more than basic beeps boops and buzzes. Did you have to go out and spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to get an ad in card. It was on board. On the motherboard.
The newest computer I own is an early ryzen from the previous Dark Times. Not to be confused with these dark times. So I don’t have first-hand experience. But it is my understanding that Intel integrated Graphics isn’t quite the joke is that it used to be. Just a bastard stepchild that Intel can’t decide if they really want to support of not. And some AMD chips have an APU on it which is similar. But still chokes under anything very intense. It’s getting close. But just not quite. Give us a truly standardized setup with the basic power of a mid 2010s graphics accelerator and vulkan api, most people would be in business.
Honestly I’m hoping something along this line happens and becomes common with risc-v systems. Like Mali with arm.
Only in the sense using a calculator makes you worse at long division. You’re still doing math.
Every pearl-clutching article like ‘doctors got worse at spotting cancer when we gave them a tool and then took it away’ is only measuring before and after. None of them seem interested in asking: how much more cancer did they find, with the tool?
Linus explained in that Git tag message that he “did what I preach” and used modern LLM tools to make sense of patches that were hard for him to follow.
It’s already too late. He’s gone down the rabbit hole.
I can vouch for that: As a programmer, I can generally see both programming AI and general LLM use if it was copy-pasted. I know a guy who isn’t a programmer who’ve used Claude Code to make an app, and things are working, but it’s sooo clear even to a junior SE that it’s vibe-coded. There’s a clear lack of consistency, architecture, maintainability, and general human readability.
However, if the code/text was reviewed and edited by a capable human programmer, it’s incredibly difficult to single out what is a product of AI and not.
Actual programmers who understand and can write code themselves who use AI simply as a tool, NOT a shortcut, will produce indistinguishable code. Linus is an incredibly smart and capable guy, and for specific uses, I’m confident in him using this tool responsibly.
(The ethics of AI use is a different topic however…)
How do you see the longevity of it. You obviously learnt how to code before ai. What about those learning now that are learning only having access to ai. Id anticipate the quality over time will deteriorate
I think we’ll unfortunately see a degradation over time of capable programmers, as it’s with most other things: Humans learn poorly from seeing things being done for them, rather than doing it themselves. AI can be a good resource for iteration and a sort of rubber duck, and even for explaining things (with external confirmation). But as it currently stands, people find it much more attractive to just let AI do the work for them. That’s the most prominent work culture after all, based on capitalistic values: Economic growth above all.
I see it in schools as well, unfortunately: Students find it much more appealing to get good grades than to actually learn. Not everyone, of course, but still way too many.
And I do understand many of the students: The bar for junior programmers has now increased, as a lot of employers simply think “why hire a human that is on the same level as AI?”.
Students find it much more appealing to get good grades than to actually learn.
Because there is a direct impact on your chances for a better life. Having better grades give you access to better schools (and in the US, scholarships as well).
Almost anyone can cut and paste a face on a different body using a classic photo editor.
It still takes a profesional to do it in a way that delivers a quality result.
Linus Torvalds is a professional, the linux terminal is his baby, if we can trust anyone on this, its him.
The amateurs using ai to produce slop that resembles what we perceive as quality, is sometimes hard to tell but 25 years ago people though half life 1 looked insanely realistic and that graphics could not possibly look any more real. Over time our brains will adapt and we will be able to tell slop from real work in a heartbeat. I bet most people here can already tell if a mail was written by an llm and not audited by a human with ease.
We didn’t think Half Life 1 looked realistic against reality, just that it was the most realistic graphics we had seen yet.
It’s not like we looked at the game and went that’s indistinguishable from reality.
but isn’t using AI inherently unethical?
My subjective opinion is that yeah it is unethical, but not more then so many other things we normalised.
Systematicly slaughtering animals for meat for example.
I am not a vegitarian by any means. You cannot fight on all fronts at once and have to pick your own battles in context of your own lifes challenges.
Cars poison the air and kill many people, i dont drive a car for that reason because thats a fight i can fight. I have sensativities with food, so i am not cutting out meat. (I aim to do so some day)
I moved to linux some years ago by getting help from an llm which requires datacenters build by malicious companies. I don’t have a google or meta account and my cloud and media is hosted locally on recycled hardware. Where for others those services require datacenters build by malicious companies.
Life is various shades of grey.
I’m worried about cognitive surrender. There’s evidence of people losing skills they once had because they stopped doing it themselves and just get AI to do it for them.
“Using AI for Just 10 Minutes Erodes Your Ability to Persist at Hard Things”: https://vcresearch.berkeley.edu/news/using-ai-just-10-minutes-erodes-your-ability-persist-hard-things
They should run the test with calculators, because they’ll see the same effect. Turns out that giving people a tool to make things trivial, and then taking that tool away, halfway through the goddamn exam, is a lot more frustrating than just asking them to do some algebra on paper.
‘Bicycling for just ten miles makes walking back seem like a pain in the ass.’
going to just copy and paste my reply to your other comment: AI is not a tool it is a replacement, there’s no skill in using AI
yeah I agree with this statement. it’s not that LLM are necessarily bad it’s making people reliant and lazy which leads to complacency.
Pretty much the whole point of every invention in the industrial revolution.
Absolutely not. Lots of thing were created to make jobs faster and more importantly faster.
Take the simple washing machine for example. Early iteration, before electric washing machine, caused a lot of injuries because people would get their arm stuck in the machine’s mechanism.
So by creating the modern washing machine, we freed lot of time for people to do less menial stuff and made their life safer by not having your arm pushing clothes through a dangerous machine.
or the cotton gin, or the steam engine…
Now one wo/man + machine can do the work of ten wo/men… and 9 wo/men were freed up to “do less menial stuff” - and not get paid (or enslaved) for it.
If he’s still auditing and understanding the code. Something that he’s done as a project manager for decades at this point. I don’t see how it will. If the code is generated by a person or a machine. The auditing isn’t much different.
Ironically, I find the LLMs to be better at auditing code than generating it in the first place. Like the humans they trained under, LLMs make mistakes and miss important things in both endeavors, but: when an LLM finds a real problem, that’s a win no matter how you look at it.
Definitely. I just hope that sooner rather than later it’s possible for them all to move over to local open source models. Supporting wasteful content thieves is not sustainable.
That and that all the GPU manufacturers Etc have their sound blaster moment. These days a lot of socs have quite powerful Graphics accelerators on them. At some point, someone’s going to release a bit of silicon equivalent to the AC 97. May not have been able to compete with sound blaster on the ridiculously high end of the market. But was good enough for 99% of tasks. So that most people don’t even remember sound blaster anymore. Even though they still technically exist.
I have been using “onboard graphics” professionally in our products, including products which do 3D rendering, since 2014.
I think GPUs have a little longer life than sound blaster cards still in them, massive arrays of relatively simple CPUs have more purposes than just graphics rendering.
I searched what sound blaster is, but I don’t really understand it. Are they a company that made audio cards in the ancient times? I think I remember some people said that having audio cards was not standard.
Their website seems to have weird hardware targeted at gamers.
Maybe they sell audio interfaces? But I’m confused why gamers of all people would be the target group. I got an audio interface for my guitar myself and some MIDI things.
Back in the DOS days and early windows days. They were one of the gold standards for PC audio. Even if you didn’t own a sound blaster card, you likely owned a clone that emulated one. They were the bees knees so to speak when it came to PC gaming.
But by the late 90s the company had spread itself so thin on branding and other things. Sound blaster CDROM drives? Yep. Sound blaster video cards? Yep. Etc Etc Etc. They tried to parlay being a lucky defacto standard into something else. Wanted to be a premium brand. Prices go up, quality goes down. Kinda like Nvidia now. Fake frames, AI slop, shitting on traditional customers.
Turn of the century and a standard set in 97 finally started rolling out on consumer motherboards. No longer when you bought your computer if you wanted it to make anything more than basic beeps boops and buzzes. Did you have to go out and spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to get an ad in card. It was on board. On the motherboard.
The newest computer I own is an early ryzen from the previous Dark Times. Not to be confused with these dark times. So I don’t have first-hand experience. But it is my understanding that Intel integrated Graphics isn’t quite the joke is that it used to be. Just a bastard stepchild that Intel can’t decide if they really want to support of not. And some AMD chips have an APU on it which is similar. But still chokes under anything very intense. It’s getting close. But just not quite. Give us a truly standardized setup with the basic power of a mid 2010s graphics accelerator and vulkan api, most people would be in business.
Honestly I’m hoping something along this line happens and becomes common with risc-v systems. Like Mali with arm.
Only in the sense using a calculator makes you worse at long division. You’re still doing math.
Every pearl-clutching article like ‘doctors got worse at spotting cancer when we gave them a tool and then took it away’ is only measuring before and after. None of them seem interested in asking: how much more cancer did they find, with the tool?
AI is not a tool it is a replacement, there’s no skill in using AI
Weird how software engineers are better at ‘being replaced’ than novices. They seem to get better results by knowing what it’s supposed to be doing.
What a funny coincidence.
It’s already too late. He’s gone down the rabbit hole.
I can vouch for that: As a programmer, I can generally see both programming AI and general LLM use if it was copy-pasted. I know a guy who isn’t a programmer who’ve used Claude Code to make an app, and things are working, but it’s sooo clear even to a junior SE that it’s vibe-coded. There’s a clear lack of consistency, architecture, maintainability, and general human readability.
However, if the code/text was reviewed and edited by a capable human programmer, it’s incredibly difficult to single out what is a product of AI and not.
Actual programmers who understand and can write code themselves who use AI simply as a tool, NOT a shortcut, will produce indistinguishable code. Linus is an incredibly smart and capable guy, and for specific uses, I’m confident in him using this tool responsibly.
(The ethics of AI use is a different topic however…)
How do you see the longevity of it. You obviously learnt how to code before ai. What about those learning now that are learning only having access to ai. Id anticipate the quality over time will deteriorate
I think we’ll unfortunately see a degradation over time of capable programmers, as it’s with most other things: Humans learn poorly from seeing things being done for them, rather than doing it themselves. AI can be a good resource for iteration and a sort of rubber duck, and even for explaining things (with external confirmation). But as it currently stands, people find it much more attractive to just let AI do the work for them. That’s the most prominent work culture after all, based on capitalistic values: Economic growth above all.
I see it in schools as well, unfortunately: Students find it much more appealing to get good grades than to actually learn. Not everyone, of course, but still way too many.
And I do understand many of the students: The bar for junior programmers has now increased, as a lot of employers simply think “why hire a human that is on the same level as AI?”.
Because there is a direct impact on your chances for a better life. Having better grades give you access to better schools (and in the US, scholarships as well).
The emphasis of our school system is results.
This message explains the difference between being a centaur or a reverse centaur. Pluralistic explains it in more depth.